The Lawmatics Blog

According to the American Bar Association's 2022 Profile of the Legal Profession, just 38% of lawyers and 30% of judges in the United States are women. While that portion has been climbing steadily over decades, law is still a male-dominated industry. That's why we wanted to take Women's History Month as an opportunity to ask our female-identifying customers what being a woman in law means to them. Here are some of their responses.

What does it mean to you to be a woman in law?

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“Being a woman in law means I can continue the legacy of women that have gone before me to fight for the rights of the oppressed, help those who would otherwise not afford help, and better society.”

— Anonymous

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“It means that I am a leader. I'm showing my daughters that gender and social expectations do not need to limit our dreams.”

— Anonymous

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“It's empowering. It is an opportunity to uplift voices historically excluded from the legal and policy realm. It is an opportunity to challenge patriarchal systems of privilege, hierarchy, ownership, dominance, and exclusion.”

— Mara Yarbrough, Staff Attorney, New Mexico Environmental Law Center

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“To be a woman in law means to be a woman of power and responsibility.

Being a woman in law means being consistently under-estimated and having to work harder than your male colleagues to be heard and respected. Women are expected to be nice, polite and reasonable. If we behave assertively or with confidence, we are labeled “aggressive” or worse. A man can interrupt a woman without notice or regard, but when a woman interrupts a man during the same conversation, it rarely goes unnoticed or unchastised.Being underestimated (and often over-criticized) is a strength. We yield power through bias. When we get fierce it’s shocking. When we call out bad behavior, it’s even more so.We have the power to make change. We have the responsibility to step up and speak out. We have a responsibility to create change and opportunities for the next generation of women and men.”— Kristen Prinz, Founder & Managing Partner, The Prinz Law Firm

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“Those statistics are interesting to me because I do see that the industry is still male dominated, but [it’s] so much better than 20 or 30 years ago, so there is progress. I have been practicing so long that it feels natural to practice law as a woman, but I still run into male lawyers who want to dominate the conversation, act aggressive, and treat me differently. Clients and judges too. Not so long ago, I had a woman tell me that she wouldn't want to work at my firm because she just doesn't want a female boss.”

— Sharon Pratt, President, Pratt & Associates, APC

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“For me as an owner, it has provided me with financial security and the ability to handle a variety of situations and not feel undervalued or minimized.”

— Anonymous

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“Strong, focused, resilient and determined to succeed against all odds in a male-dominated profession.”

— Anonymous

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“It can feel like a powerful position, but it is clearly a field run primarily by men.”

— Anonymous

Have you been mentored by a woman in the legal industry? What qualities of theirs have stayed with you?

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“The key qualities I've retained from my mentors are: 1) Be authentic and speak your mind; 2) honor your plan; 3) you are doing the best you can with what you have; 4) you are doing enough; 5) you are enough!”

— Jeanette Mora, Attorney, Family First Firm

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“Qualities that have been very important to me and that I continue to apply in my daily life are: never compare myself with others, we all have different purposes and different rhythms. To have discipline, since in life everything is achieved based on determination, perseverance and work. To transmit confidence, both to my clients and to my work team. To trust in my skills and knowledge and never let anyone else question them; and finally, to always keep myself updated because we live in a changing world that is evolving faster and faster.”

— Melissa Zúñiga de la Fuente, Legal Marketing Consultant, Gericó Associates

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“Hard work, intelligence, and focus.”

— Anonymous

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“Compassion, patience”

— Anonymous

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“Very early in my career I was told by one of the female partners, in training me how to take a deposition, not to be so "ladylike", which was good advice at the time because I was raised to be polite and unassuming, which is not the best demeanor for a deposition, especially when you are young. These days I practice with a lot more confidence and hardly think about whether someone is male or female. I think more about whether they are good at what they do. When I am mentoring younger females, I want them to know that it is all about confidence.”

— Sharon Pratt, President, Pratt & Associates, APC

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“The recognition that I have skills to share in legal areas that others may not.”

— Nadine Atkinson-Flowers, Attorney, Law Office of Nadine Atkinson-Flowers

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“I have been supported and sponsored by so many women in the legal industry. Their tenacity, strength, humor, and friendship have stayed with me.”

— Kristine Palkowetz, Marketing Director, C. Todd Smith Law

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“Perseverance, strength, motivation, kindness, intelligence, respect.”

— Mara Yarbrough, Staff Attorney, New Mexico Environmental Law Center

Have you been mentored by a woman in the legal industry? What qualities of theirs have stayed with you?

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“If you're interested in law, the best thing you can do is to start. Take an internship, apply, or start a class. Most importantly, just start!”

— Kristine Palkowetz, Marketing Director, C. Todd Smith Law

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“Value your time.”

— Anonymous

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“I wholeheartedly feel that I am impacting lives one at a time as I work with my clients. In the end, that is what it is all about.”

— Jeanette Mora, Attorney, Family First Firm

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“Shortly after I was hired at a firm years ago, I found out that a man with less experience and credentials than me had been offered a higher starting salary. He didn’t negotiate a higher starting salary. He negotiated from a higher starting point than offered to me. When I approached the male hiring partner and asked why my male colleague was offered a higher starting salary, he told me it was “because men won’t take as little as women.”

Too often, he has been proven correct. Women undervalue our own contributions because we want to be nice, polite and reasonable. Instead, let’s be bold. Let’s be aggressive. Let’s be powerful."— Anonymous

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“The gap between men and women in law-related positions is still quite large and it is important to close it because the lack of inclusion has too high a cost. The positive thing is that more and more women are making our way and opening doors for each other, which helps us to believe and bet on the professional capacity of women, which should not be overshadowed or left aside by external factors."

— Melissa Zúñiga de la Fuente, Legal Marketing Consultant, Gericó Associates

Final thoughts

We appreciate each of our customers who took the time to complete our survey. Your honest comments provided powerful insight into the strengths and challenges involved in being a woman in law. As a legal software company, Lawmatics recognizes that people are the core infrastructure of the legal profession. We hope that by sharing your thoughts and experiences, we can further propel meaningful conversations that recognize the critical role of women in law.

Put down your brackets and check out the Lawmatics version of March Madness with this roster of exciting new features!

Create From Within

Create From Within is a complete reinvention of our UX (user experience). This revolutionary feature will change the way you interact with Lawmatics, giving you the ability to create any asset or object in Lawmatics from the very place that you need to use it. Need to send a new email to contacts? Now you can create the email right from wherever you typically select the email to use. Have a new contact that needs to be added as a relationship to a matter? No problem! Now you’ll be able to create that contact right from the add new relationship section of a matter. Anything and everything that you build and add to Lawmatics can be created without navigating to another screen!Our new user experience will be rolled out over the next couple of months. This release introduces you to the new right side slide-out experience which replaces our pop-up modal screens and also gives you the Create From Within capability for new emails from everywhere that emails are sent.We have spent countless hours talking to you, our passionate customer, and listening to your feedback. We are committed to making Lawmatics easier to get started with AND use in the day-to-day. This new UX is a direct response to the feedback we have received and we are extremely excited to save you even more time in your day.Stay tuned as we roll this feature out throughout the platform over the course of the next several releases.

Merge Duplicate Contacts

A highly requested feature, you now have the ability to easily merge any duplicate contacts that find their way into your CRM. While Lawmatics will continue to de-duplicate your contacts automatically based on email address, you can now manually merge any pesky duplicate contacts that don’t have an associated email address. Simply navigate to a duplicate contact, select the Merge Contacts button (as highlighted below), then select the other contact you wish to merge records with. The interface will then show you any discrepancies in data between the two contacts and allow you to select which data should remain on a merged contact on a field-by-field basis. No more manual duplicate checking and data transfer!For a simple breakdown of Contacts vs. Matters in Lawmatics, click here.

Built-In Appointment Confirmation

Scheduling and confirming consultations is an essential part of your intake process. While you may be accustomed to using an Automation to confirm/remind clients of their appointments, we’ve made this even easier by adding Confirmations messages as a default function — no need to build a dedicated Automation. When you navigate to the Appointments section of the Settings menu, you now have the option to create a Custom Email and/or SMS template for confirming each of your various appointment types. This confirmation will be sent automatically at the time the appointment is scheduled.Want to learn more about appointments in Lawmatics? Tune in to this month’s Deep Dive webinar.

Use Merge Fields in Custom Form Instruction Blocks

We’re introduced yet another way to add a personal yet automated touch to your client correspondence. As with your email templates and documents, you can now add Merge Fields to instructions blocks on your Custom Forms. This allows you to address your client by name or include any other personalized information within the Custom Form. When creating a Custom Form, simply drag and drop the Instructions Field into your Form and click on it to add your content.Click here for a crash course on Custom Forms and their advanced functionality.

Share File Folders to Client Portal

We recently released the ability to create a default set of File Folders within a Matter Profile to store documents and critical case files. Now we’ve taken this new feature a step further by enabling users to share these folders in the Client Portal of a matter contact outside of your organization. This makes it easy for any desired contact to gain instant access to said folders, along with their contents, with organization in mind. To use this feature, click the Portal Button on any Matter Folder (highlighted below).Not familiar with the Lawmatics Client Portal? Learn more about it here!—We sure think these new features are a slam dunk, and we hope you do too! As always, feel free to share any questions or comments on this latest release with us by emailing support@lawmatics.com.

Lawmatics CEO Matt Spiegel recently joined the Legal MastermindPodcast, hosted by Ryan Klein and Chase Williams. They discussed the history and culture of Lawmatics, and the everyday legal problems that led to its founding.

The founder's journey

Matt’s arc from practicing criminal defense attorney to serial legal tech entrepreneur is an unusual one. He dives into how his experiences have led him to founding the #1 CRM and automation platform for law firms, including:

• How a bar complaint led to Matt becoming an entrepreneur
• His path from MyCase, to venturing outside legal tech, to Lawmatics

Inside Lawmatics

Ryan and Chase ask about the things that make Lawmatics stand out from the pack.

• The values and culture that make Lawmatics one of the best places to work
• Growth goals for Lawmatics this year

Stay tuned for some insights on how technology like AI and predictive analytics will shape the legal landscape. Listen to the audio player above, or read the transcript below.

Podcast transcript

Matt Spiegel:Our culture is everything to us. One of the things that we've been very fortunate is everyone's getting rid of offices, we just moved from 4,000 square feet to 12,500 square feet. We more than tripled the size of our office because people are coming in. We have this amazing culture. That's the part that I'm most proud of. It's what makes me get up every day is the team that we've built.Speaker 2:You're listening to the Legal Mastermind podcast with your host, Ryan Klein and Chase Williams, the go-to podcast for learning from the experts in the legal community about effective ways to grow and manage your law firmChase Williams:Today, on the Legal Mastermind podcast, we have Matt Spiegel. He's the founder and CEO of Lawmatics. He actually founded another company you might be familiar with called My Case and back in the day he started off as a lawyer and so there's lots to talk about today, Matt. So welcome to the Legal Mastermind podcast.Matt Spiegel:Yeah, thank you guys for having me. Super excited for the conversation today.Chase Williams:For sure. And we were riffing so hard beforehand just about one, how your experience was wake surfing for the first time with the CEO of Clio and how fun that was. And then just started talking about you were a lawyer and you found a need, I assume for your firm, which we'll talk about in a minute. And then you started my case and then you're one of the few entrepreneurs that I've ever spoken to that's found two successful tech companies or SaaS products. That's where I guess the sexy slogan would be for what you guys do.Matt Spiegel:I guess. Yeah.Chase Williams:So how did that story start? I mean, you graduated law school and then worked for an attorney's office for a couple years and then started your own firm. So take us from starting the firm to your first-Matt Spiegel:That's right. I mean, I guess it goes back earlier than that too because I don't really think I ever wanted to be a lawyer if I really think about it. I think I just wanted to own a business and I guess somewhere in my... Well, parents actually made me go to law school. This is my senior year of college and I'm getting ready to go on spring break. I'm sitting at home and I'm leaving the next day for this awesome spring break trip senior year, which is the most epic year. And they're like, we don't want you to go into real estate. You need to go to law school. And that was literally the first I ever thought about it. And this was March of my senior year of college. And so I kind of shotgun took the LSAT and then went to law school.So it's not like I ever was like, oh my God, I have this dream of being a lawyer. It definitely was not romantic for me, but I thought it could be a good business to run. And then during law school I decided that of all the types of law firms to have, criminal defense would probably be the easiest to run a business. I could build a repeatable process. I think I could advertise and actually attract customers. So basically I thought that I could start a law firm without much experience and probably get people in the door.So after law school, I ended up going and working for a kind of notorious firm in San Diego for four years. Really, really high volume criminal defense practice. And then I had enough experience, I had helped hundreds of clients at that point. And so I'm like, all right, time to do my own thing. So I left to do my own thing and within two weeks I think I got a bar complaint. And so what was funny was that bar complaint is ultimately what led me down this whole road. So if it wasn't for that bar complaint, I probably would not be here talking to you guys. I would not have started My Case and then certainly would not have started on with Lawmatics.Chase Williams:I'm surprised you didn't start your own AVO competitor since you had that great AVO score after that bar complaint, I'm sure.Matt Spiegel:Well, you want to talk about AVO, that's a whole different story. We can talk about that. Because somehow, as I make the money sign, I maintained my 10.0 score. But no, it was a complaint about client communication. Basically they were just like, my lawyer didn't call me back quick enough. So I started thinking, I'm like, how do I... This guy called me at like 9:00 in the morning and I called him back at six. And that wasn't quick enough for him. But I was in court all day. I'm a criminal defense lawyer. I'm in trial. I can't answer the phone when I'm in judge's chambers or when I'm talking to a jury. I got back to him as quick as I could and I have other clients and I started hearing the same thing from other clients, although they didn't make bar complaints. And the issue, it's not like they had something critically important to talk to me about. They wanted to know when was their next court date and where's my police report? I want to see my police report.These are two very basic things that if I could just provide them with that information, they wouldn't need to call me all the time. And so I'm like, well, wait a second, can't I just add this to my website so that my clients can log in and they could just see their calendar. I could upload their court documentation and police report. And so my cousin who was building my website, he was just a basic website builder. I'm like, "Dude, can you build something on the back end of my site so that my clients could get this stuff?" And he's like, "I mean, I can try." He's like, "I have no idea how to do that though." So we kind of hacked it together and I'm talking to my friends and my friends are like, hey, can you build that for us? I'm like, no.Chase Williams:Was there anything out there that was similar to-Matt Spiegel:No. So we were using a couple products. I think I was using Clio at the time. I also had tried Rocket Matter and those are brand new, just online practice management solutions for billing and stuff like that. But they really didn't have any sort of client... There was no client portal. That wasn't a thing really. And so I hired on a buddy to come basically found My Case with me alongside of my cousin and I'm like, hey, you're an engineer. Can you build this? I think other lawyers would want this portal. And so we invented the client portal and that's all that My Case was. And we were like, other lawyers are going to want this. And we started trying to show other lawyers and other lawyers were like, hey, this is really cool, but we don't want to use it on its own. It needs to be part of this big solution. And so we went back and we just built our own practice management system and that's how My Case got started.Chase Williams:How long did it take?Matt Spiegel:I mean, it's never done. My Case just sold to LawPay. Big transaction worth a billion dollars now. And it's still not done. The software is never finished, but it took like six months to build a version that we could go out to people with, really a year before we really went to market. And then it was a year and a half later that we had grown pretty big and we sold to a company called AppFolio. So it was a pretty quick run before acquisition. And then I stayed with that company for years after that still running My Case. But I did it alongside. I mean, I started my law firm in 2009. I had the idea for My Case at the very end of 2009. Also had my first kid or found out that we were pregnant with our first kid right in there too. Just a whirlwind. And then I still had my law firm. My law firm was just getting started. So the first year and a half, almost two years of building My Case, I also had my law firm. It was crazy.Ryan Klein:The story about your cousin building the website, it sounds like when Chase and I were starting an agency, we'd be pitching lawyers and at the end of the day they'd be like, you know what? My cousin's just going to build the website, he's going to get me a deal. So maybe we were talking to you for all we know back in the day. So when you're going through this process, and obviously you're a busy lawyer and you're kind of assembling this dream team to launch this new software, how are you coordinating it? Were you essentially leading it or someone else or are you arranging for time on weekends or late evenings?Matt Spiegel:Yeah. No, I mean that was the trick was I had this law firm and the law firm was... I was having a kid, a law firm is what's putting food on the table and a roof over our head. This pie in the sky idea of building a software company, it's just a dream at that point. I had like four offices in my law firm and one of the offices was my cousin and my other co-founder who were working on building My Case. And so everyone was just sort of moonlighting. It was one of those things where it's like, you have this idea, you have something that you think could be really cool, but everyone needs to work. Everyone needs to still make money. And we weren't raising millions of dollars from a venture capital at that point, things like that. It's a side hustle. It was totally a side hustle at that point. And what we really figured out how to do was to leverage the law firm to help us build My Case.One of the biggest things, one of the toughest things was creating conviction amongst my co-founders that this was worth it. That was the first hurdle was like, you're going to do something like this where everyone's going to work on nights and weekends, they're going to give up a lot of their life in order to do this. And unfortunately, I couldn't really code, so there wasn't all that much for me to do. I can sit alongside of them and watch them do it, but at the end of the day, in the beginning, the early days, it's really all them writing code. You've got to convince them that this is worth it. And I think doing that was a bit of a challenge, and so we ended up just trying to figure out ways to make it fun. When you're doing a side hustle like that, I feel like you've got to make it fun. It can't feel like work.Chase Williams:Was there a point where you built it out and you would try to go to market and you're just like, man, nobody wants this. Did we waste our time? Did you have that feeling or were you pretty much like, this is going to work, no doubts.Matt Spiegel:I'm a super competitive guy. I think you kind of have to be competitive if you're in this world. And so losing was never really an option for me. But when we went to market, we went to this conference, this is going to date me I guess a little bit, but there was a legal... There's a big conference in New York called Legal Week. It used to be called Legal Tech, and they used to have one on the West Coast, they used to have one in LA. So this was like 2010. And we took the My Case client portal, we took it there and that's where we got the feedback from people like we're not going to use this. We might use it if it's part of a bigger practice management system, which could be cool, but we're not going to use it. And that was a moment where it was like, these guys had built this thing and I told them that other lawyers were going to want this, and now other lawyers are telling us that they're not going to use it.And so it's a little bit of a challenge I think at that point for myself too to sort of regroup and be like, guys, now I'm saying that we need to go and build this massive product. This was something pretty easy to build, this client portal, but now we need to go build something really big and this is going to take a lot of time and a lot of effort. And rallying behind a negative experience because being told that no one's going to use your product is a negative experience, rallying around that was definitely... We did it over a lot of beers, that's for sure.Chase Williams:Were you guys all at the conference hearing this news or was it just you and then you had to relay?Matt Spiegel:No, no, no. We were all there. We were all experiencing it. And I think what's cool is that lawyers were really great at this point. The feedback was, yeah, we're not going to use it, but it was like, we want to. We want to use it, you've just got to give it to us alongside of other tools because we just don't want this other thing that we have to use.Ryan Klein:Yeah, that's true. I mean, even today it's hard enough to get anyone to adopt one piece of technology. We have people that you could talk until you're blue in the face about the benefits of implementing this and showing the before and after, like you're using Excel spreadsheets or PDFs or handwriting things and this technology is going to solve it, but it's just going to take a little bit of dedication in the beginning, and they won't do it. So I can imagine 10 years ago.Matt Spiegel:Yeah, I mean, look at what's going on in the market right now, right? The idea of all in one solutions is still prominent, it's still what a lot of companies, big companies out there, Clio, My Case, File Vine, Smokeball, RocketLink, these companies are all trying to sort of strive for that all in one field. It's still the mentality and it was very much the mentality back then.Ryan Klein:So how do you get people to really start adopting new technology and giving it a shot, especially when law firms especially can be so averse? Did you have a breakthrough moment or have to do some sort of clever positioning?Matt Spiegel:No, I mean, I think at that point my strategy has always been very simple and it is just always listen to the customer, never listen to me basically. I'm a product junkie. At my companies where I spend most of my day to day beyond just basic CEO duties is in product. That's where I focus my time. And I made the mistake early on of building what I thought lawyers... I was a lawyer, so I was building stuff and maybe very early on that worked to build stuff that would basically scratch my own itch. But as we started to build and put a product out to market, you realize you cannot do that. You just have to listen to what your customers are telling you. And if you let your customers drive you and drive your product roadmap, it's been very successful for us.So that's where, to me, the breakthrough moment is really just deciding that we're going to listen 100% to our customers. And honestly as a law firm, you kind of should do the same thing. Our discussion today is really fun and may seem completely unrelated to law firms, but I actually think it's very related to law firms too. If you're treating your law firm like a startup, you're building this business, it's not just about how you practice law, it's also about the service that you provide and the experience that you provide and you need to listen to your customers in order to figure out how to make your experience better. And so when we started doing that as a product department at our company at My Case, and we've done that since day one at Lawmatics, that's when we really saw, okay, now lawyers, they're very happy to adopt our technology because we're building stuff that they are telling us to build.Chase Williams:So I assume you received some success at My Case and then it got to a point where you sold the company. So what happened next? You worked for the company some more I believe you said, and then you exited at one point.Matt Spiegel:Yeah, so we exited. I sold the company in 2012 and it was a great experience. I loved the company that we sold it to. We IPOed in 2015 and then that's when I left. So I was there about three years, almost three years after the acquisition, and incredible experience. And then I ended up going and messing around for a little while. I got brought on to a totally non-legal tech company. It's actually owned by a guy in Australia who owns a lot of legal tech companies, but I wasn't allowed to go work for a legal tech company at that time. So I went and worked for his non-legal tech company. I ended up taking that company over as CEO for a couple years and I was going back and forth to Sydney, Australia all the time, which was cool in the beginning, and then at that point now I had two little girls, and so traveling over there for a couple weeks at a time every two months got to be a lot.And honestly, I was the CEO, but I was still working for somebody. I had a chairman and I decided I needed my own thing again. I wanted to build my own company and be able to control the product, build a software product because the company I was working for was not really a software company. And then Lawmatics was what happened. We really saw this need in the market. We identified this need for our CRM back at My Case in 2014, and then in 2017 when I was going to start another company and we're like, man, this is still this massive hole in the market. And so we set out to solve it.Chase Williams:So I bet your experience starting Lawmatics was a little bit different. Did you call your cousin again or how did that work?Matt Spiegel:No, definitely did not call my cousin. My cousins was off doing other things, enjoying life a little bit more. I had another engineer who was working with me at My Case who I had brought along to my companies that I had done after I left My Case. And so I brought him on to kind of be our founding CTO. The beauty is this time around, one thing that I realized is I had a lot more access to great people the second time, and so I was able to build a team around me. Also had a little bit more access to capital the second time around, so I was able to build a little bit of a bigger team earlier on to go and build this thing. Lawmatics is a freaking beast, I mean, we've been building this thing for five years and we're just getting started. It is a massive piece of product. And so it took a while to build something that we could really be comfortable going to market with that had some product market fit.And then it's just been a wild ride ever since and much different path though, whereas My Case, we never really raised money for it. We sort of built it as a side hustle and then ended up getting acquired pretty early on. We're two or three rounds into venture funding now. We've raised almost $20 million, built a big company and been doing it for five years and are really pushing hard down the path of doing it ourselves without hitching our wagon to anybody. It's a very different approach.Ryan Klein:What do you think is different about your day-to-day leading this versus My Case? Is the day comprised of different responsibilities and types of meetings?Matt Spiegel:Totally. It couldn't be any different. When the company gets to a certain size, your day-to-day as a CEO becomes about the people and not about the product. My issues are managing people and people problems and not as much the product. I try to focus as much time on the product as I can, but we have a big team and that big team requires lots of different attention points, whether it's career path and promotions or hiring, firing, performance. All that becomes really important at a company our size. And that's a big difference. And in My Case, when we sold My Case, it was me and two other people, well technically three other people. We were four people at the company. That was it. And we definitely grew pretty quickly under AppFolio. I had a lot of help there because AppFolio had some incredible executives who were there to help me learn how to lead the company at scale.But here at Lawmatics, it's just me. We're doing it on our own. It's a very different experience, but it's so much fun. Our culture is everything to us. One of the things that we've been very fortunate is we just moved offices, everyone's getting rid of offices, we just moved from 4,000 square feet to 12,500 square feet. We more than tripled the size of our office because people are coming in. We have this amazing culture. That's the part that I'm most proud of. It's what makes me get up every day is the team that we've built.Chase Williams:What do you think makes the culture so amazing?Matt Spiegel:Man, that's a good question. So we have this super cheesy value, but I think it plays into why our culture is so great, and that is friend before colleague. Obviously you're not going to be best friends with everyone that you work with, but it's that we want everybody to treat each other as a friend before just a colleague. And that means just a different level. A colleague is someone you just work with and so the relationship is work centric, right? But a friend is someone you're going to have different compassion for and you're going to understand them on a different level and have sometimes a deeper connection with, and we strive for that and it's been incredible.Chase Williams:Is that a core value of the company? If you find somebody that doesn't follow that mantra, are they gone or is it more-Matt Spiegel:Yeah, I mean, we've never had to fire somebody for lack of fit culturally. So we've done a good job of hiring. I think we look for that. We look for a good fit. I mean, I think we've had people leave, they weren't fired, but they left who maybe weren't the best culture fit. So I think that they just don't assimilate as well. It's not as fun for them to be on the team. But it is definitely one of our core values and something that is very important to us. We're not hiring 100% remote people. We are hiring people in San Diego who are going to be excited about coming into the office and being around people. And we do it three days a week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Thursday and Friday are remote days. But if I were to show you our office right now, you would see a whole bunch of people still here who even on the day where they can be remote are choosing to come in. It's really cool.Ryan Klein:That's cool. Yeah. I like what you were saying about the core values. I agree. I think that once they're established and people really own them, it kind of works itself out. It permeates the organization and people either kind of start to adhere to it or they start to naturally make their way out as it's observed more and more. So what are you all looking forward to the most this year? It's January, we're just getting started. Do you have any initiatives that everyone's really rallying around right now?Matt Spiegel:Yeah, we do. We really do. This is actually a huge year for us. We're really, really excited. What I'm most excited about is conferences are in full swing again this year. We love going out face to face with our customers. We love traveling to these different places where conferences are. I know we were talking earlier, I think you, Chase, met some of our team at a conference just a month or two ago. We love doing that. I'm really excited because we have a full slate of conferences set up. I'm actually going to New York next week. These are things I really love to do personally and our team loves the opportunity to do it as well.But we're really focused on scaling the business, the infrastructure of the business as we start to really hit pretty massive milestones inside of our application, like the volume of things getting processed and just our general infrastructure. We're really focusing on the reliability of our platform in 2023 and making sure that it is scalable for the future. That's a big focus of ours. We're also starting to attract bigger law firms. That's a big focus for us is we've always been there for the solo and small firms. That's been our bread and butter, but the product has really evolved to be very suitable for a bigger firm, and that's a big focus for us too is moving upstream a little bit this year.Chase Williams:I'm very curious about what are your thoughts on... The buzz topic right now obviously is AI. So are you guys thinking about integrating any sort of AI into Lawmatics? I could see there's possibilities there. I just want to get your opinion there.Matt Spiegel:We've always had a little bit of our own AI. It's not really AI, but it's more like predictive analytics around your leads. And I think it could be really valuable there. It can sort of take a look and say, this lead has the potential to be worth this much to your law firm, given all of the different data points of a particular lead, the type of case, maybe everything about the person. AI can take a look at that and compare it to all the leads you've gotten and the cases that you've handled and see could this be a good fit for your law firm? I think that there's some value there. Where everyone likes to talk about it now is around actual legal work like contract review and contract generation and ChatGPT and building things for you. And I don't know that the question is... I definitely think it can be useful for certain things, but I definitely don't think it's going to...First of all, lawyers aren't going to let AI replace them. It's a big enough union that the institution won't let it happen. And I think that there's going to be a lot of hairy issues around it too. If you start to use AI to do things that a lawyer would've normally done and you don't have a lawyer at least review that, I think there's going to be some rocky roads down the way. But there are a lot of things that AI can be really useful for. And so I look at it as like things that are relatively harmless, low impact. So one of the things about Lawmatics that's really a feature that is value proposition that is extraordinarily powerful is the marketing side of it.Lawmatics does all of your marketing, all of your email marketing, your newsletter campaigns, birthday emails, drip campaigns, anything you want to do in Lawmatics. You guys as marketers, you're going to have all these amazing ideas and best practices, and Lawmatics is what actually helps you execute them. Lawyers who are out there, small law firms who maybe can't afford to have a good agency, help them with experimenting with content or managing their campaigns, they can maybe go to AI and get content for an email that might work really well. I think that those are areas where it can help. But the other areas, I'm a little skeptical.Chase Williams:For sure. Yeah, I mean there's basic, I don't even want to call it AI, but if you had a preset document, you just type in this new client running through this process, and all that really is is stuff that you could do in Excel, essentially, but they can call it AI.Matt Spiegel:That's why I say, we have a little bit... Like Lawmatics, you're building your own AI a lot of times because you're building these automations, right? But as far as real AI that is consuming data and making decisions about what content to give you or decisions about something, it's scary for some parts of legal when you start talking about replacing the work lawyers do. But when you're talking about ancillary things, whether it's, hey, I want to put an ad out there, I want to do a banner ad on a website, or I want to do a paper click campaign and I need a catchy headline, I think AI could be a great place to start for that. I think that it's not the place to end, but it's a good place to start.Chase Williams:No more writer's block.Matt Spiegel:Yeah, right. It's good inspiration if nothing else. Right?Chase Williams:Well, Matt, thank you so much for your time. If any of our listeners want to learn more about Lawmatics or you personally, what's the best way to reach out?Matt Spiegel:So I'm always excited and happy to get emails directly from anybody. My email address is Matt, M-A-T-T, @lawmatics.com. Our website is lawmatics.com. Anyone can feel free and go there if you're interested and in the business side of your law firm and managing the business side, Lawmatics is really the only [inaudible 00:29:34] out there for you. Go check it out. But if you have any questions just about... If you're someone who's looking to start a side hustle on top of your law firm, I'm happy to chat about it. Reach out.Speaker 2:Thanks for listening to the Legal Mastermind podcast. If you're interested in working with Ryan and Chase, please email mastermind@marketmymarket.com. Make sure to join the free mastermind group for growing and managing your firm a lawfirmmastermind.com. Ryan Klein and Chase Williams are the managing partners at Market My Market, one of the top legal marketing companies in the United States.

Due process is not an unfamiliar term, but many may not fully understand its significance and the crucial role it plays in upholding justice and protecting individual rights.In short, it is the legal requirement that a government go through with any legal proceedings fairly, as the United States constitution guarantees Americans the right to life, liberty, and property, without government interference. When the government interferes, they must follow through with an adequate process. When someone has been deprived of a fair process, particularly through the courts, this is a lack of due process. It’s important to note that due process can only be violated by a government entity and every state has different laws. Due process as guaranteed under the U.S. constitution can be either substantive or procedural in nature. Let’s dive into what each of those means.

What is procedural due process?

As guaranteed in the 5th and 14th amendment, every American citizen has the right to adequate service of legal proceedings which does not take or limit their life, liberty, or property. This means they must be given warning before the government may bring about any legal proceedings. In the absence of due process, a citizen’s rights have been violated.

Goldberg vs Kelly 1970

A great example of a landmark appeal court case that clearly demonstrates procedural due process is Goldberg versus Kelly. When the welfare benefits of New York citizens were suddenly terminated without prior service or a hearing, Kelly along with other New York welfare assisted residents sued the head of the welfare payment department. Because their benefits were cut without warning, they claimed the welfare department had violated procedural due process. And since their welfare benefits were claimed a property right, they appealed that they should have been given the right to proper warning and a hearing before their welfare termination. In other words, they were deprived of due process.

What is substantive due process?

Substantive due process is the guarantee that citizens will continue to enjoy their fundamental rights and be fairly treated by the government.The 14th amendment states that no law shall be arbitrary. If the government passes a law that deprives a citizen's rights, it becomes a substantive due process issue. A substantive due process is determined by asking two questions.

1. Did the government pass this legislation?
2. If so, does the legislation ban the previously held rights of citizens?

If the answer is yes to both of these, the substantive due process must be examined through one of two ways: strict scrutiny or the rational basis test. We choose which standard of review to apply based upon the nature of the right.

1 Strict scrutiny

The bill of rights and the fourteenth amendment include fundamental rights which include rights such as:

• Freedom of speech
• Freedom of religion
• The right to have children
• The right to marry
• The right to travel within the United States
• The right to equality
• The right to assemble
• The right to bear arms

If the legislation is depriving a citizen of a right which is considered a “fundamental” right then it must pass strict scrutiny. In this case, it must be proven that the law is necessary to achieve a compelling government interest.

Roe VS Wade 1973

The historic Roe vs Wade case is a clear example of substantive due process. The Court classified abortion as a "fundamental" right of privacy, which required courts to apply strict scrutiny.

2 Rational basis test

A law that infringes upon any other kind of right which is not a fundamental right, like the right to go get a haircut, or the right to go to the dentist, we apply the rational basis test. The rational basis test is there to determine whether a particular law is rationally related enough to a constitutional issue like privacy or discrimination.The idea is that citizens have a fundamental right to live freely without government interference. In other words, if the government attempts to limit someone’s basic liberties, we must use the rational basis test to show an individual’s freedom is being taken away for a legitimate government purpose which serves a greater interest.

The origins of due process

A Magna Carta issued in the early 1200’s by John of England promised "No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgment of his equals or by the law of the land.” This “law of the land” was then set in place which not only required the monarchy to obey, but also changed the way that they could change laws as they saw fit. Later in 1354, a rendition of the Magna Carta was issued by Edward III of England substituting “the law of the land” with “answer by due process of law” thus due process came to be.

Due process: here to protect our constitutional rights

Due process is put in place to ensure that citizens' liberties are upheld. Only can our liberties be stripped away if the government has a legitimate interest which is justified and necessary. In other words, due process is here to uphold the constitution.Planning and organizing presenting your case is critical, and you need all the help you can get Powered with tools like Lawmatics all-in-one CRM, you can keep all of your case details organized and in one single location, promising a conclusion in your client's favor. Are you ready to see how Lawmatics can help your law firm? Sign up for a free demo today!

Lawmatics CEO Matt Spiegel recently joined the Love Thy Lawyer podcast, hosted by Louis Goodman. Their conversation ran the gamut from law firm marketing strategy to cultivating positive client relationships. Stay tuned for some inside baseball on creating a legal tech startup and the path that took Matt from practicing attorney to founder of MyCase and, eventually, Lawmatics. Here are some key points:

The client journey

Matt and Louis discuss the client journey and what it means to delight a client. They dive into the big ‘Why?’ of Lawmatics and the importance of optimizing the client intake process.

• What are the phases of the client journey?
• What steps can firms take to create a full client journey?
• How can attorneys create a client journey by empathizing with the client’s experience?

Legal CRM

More specifically, Matt and Louis talk about critical operational questions that a legal CRM can address:

• What mistakes do law firms make in building their business?
• How do you create a marketing strategy for a law firm?
• How can legal software improve client communication (and reduce bar complaints!)?

Listen to the audio player above, or read the transcript below.

Podcast transcript

Louis Goodman — 00:03 Welcome to Love Thy Lawyer, where we talk to practicing attorneys about their lives in and out of the practice of law. I'm Louis Goodman, the host of the show, and yes, I'm a lawyer. Nobody's perfect! Matt Spiegel is an attorney and entrepreneur in the legal tech space. He is the founder and CEO of Lawmatics, an automation platform for client intake, marketing and billing. Matt also founded and developed MyCase, a legal practice management software that is widely used and cloud-based, and it is a law practice management system. Matt worked as a criminal defense attorney for six years. He lives in two places, the world of building law firms and the golf course.Matt Spiegel, welcome to Love Thy Lawyer. Matt Spiegel — 00:59 Yeah. Thank you, Louis, and I appreciate that warm intro and thank you for having me. I will just point out one correction. I do not live on the golf course nearly as much as I used to or I want to these days, but separate conversation. Louis Goodman — 01:13 Well, we'll have to get you back out there more.Matt Spiegel — 01:16 Yeah, I think that's gonna be easier said than done with the way in which this company is growing, but yeah. Louis Goodman — 01:23 Where is your company growing? Where are you right now? Matt Spiegel — 01:27 So, we are in, we're based in San Diego. Louis Goodman — 01:29 Tell us a little bit about what type of business that you have now. Matt Spiegel — 01:34 My business that I have now is called Lawmatics. Lawmatics is what we call software as a service, right. It's just a web-based software platform like almost everybody is used to using in their daily lives now. And we really look to solve a very specific problem for law firms. It's a problem that I've experienced for a long time. It's pain that I experienced for, you know, prior to my career in tech, as you know, when I was a practicing lawyer.But we really, so we really look at the world and in terms of what's the journey that a client goes through with a law firm, right? So, we like to think of, we like to put ourselves, Louis, in the shoes of our customers' customer, right, the client of a law firm. And we look at it as three different phases to the journey. There is like phase one, which is the intake phase. You know, customers, potential client is determining whether they wanna hire the lawyer. The lawyer is determining whether they wanna take the case. And you know, it's a sales process. That's phase one. Phase two is you hired them, you hired the law firm. Now you have an active case, right? And then phase three is after the case is over, right. They're now a former client and there's a lot of aspects to that relationship which are important to a law firm. Along that, well, most of the traditional software out there, including my first business, MyCase, Clio, PracticePanther, Filevine, Smokeball, like all these products out there are focused on phase two, which is, you have an active case. What tools do I need to help me manage my cases, right? Lawmatics has really been focused on everything in phase one and everything in phase three. So everything you need before the person's hired you, help you do sales, help you do marketing, and then everything after the case is over, engaging with that, you know, nurturing that relationship, helping turn your old business into new business, things like that. So that's really where Lawmatics sits. Louis Goodman — 03:27 So Lawmatics really is more in terms of client development and marketing rather than running the case itself? Matt Spiegel — 03:39 You're absolutely right. Yeah, that's a great way to look at it. Louis Goodman — 03:42 Okay. Well, where are you from originally? Matt Spiegel — 03:46 Originally, I'm from New Jersey. Louis Goodman — 03:47 Really? Whereabouts? Matt Spiegel — 03:49 Yeah. Yeah. A place called Livingston. Louis Goodman — 03:51 Oh, well I grew up in Milburn. Matt Spiegel — 03:54 Oh, okay. Right next door! Louis Goodman — 03:57 Yeah. We used to play you all the time in football and wrestling and basketball. Matt Spiegel — 04:03 That's true. So I was there in some early formative years. And then like for middle school, high school, we moved out to Arizona, to Scottsdale. And so that was the second part of my childhood and then I went to school in Tucson and then migrated out to San Diego thereafter. Louis Goodman — 04:23 So, where'd you go to college? Matt Spiegel — 04:25 I went to college at U of A, University of Arizona. Louis Goodman — 04:29 And then from there you went to law school in San Diego? Matt Spiegel — 04:33 I came out here and went to the only law school that was still accepting applications. Given that I applied very late in the process. It's a school called Thomas Jefferson. Got a great education there, had a lot of fun. Passed the California bar in the first try and then went off and practiced criminal defense for about five years. Louis Goodman — 04:53 So, between the time you graduated from the University of Arizona and you went to Thomas Jefferson, did you take any time off or did you go directly through?Matt Spiegel — 05:02 I went directly through. And what's interesting about my story getting into becoming a lawyer, is I was sitting at home prior to going on my senior spring break trip, senior year of college. So pretty late in the game, right? You're talking March of my senior year of college. And my parents sat me down and they're like, what are you doing after you graduate? I'm like, oh. I'm like, dad, I'm gonna kind of follow in your original footsteps. What he had done back east, he didn't do it any, you know, at the time he wasn't in the business, but back east, he was in commercial real estate. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm going into commercial real estate, and they're just like, no. We do not think that that's gonna be a good move for you. Louis Goodman — 05:46 Why didn't they think that commercial real estate would be a good move for you? Matt Spiegel — 05:49 I don't know. Maybe they just thought I wasn't good at selling or something. I have no idea. Or I, maybe I, you know, or maybe my dad had a bad experience with it. All I know is that they said like, why don't, like, we think you need to go get a further degree. Why don't you become a lawyer? Maybe it was because we were like, I feel like, you know, I come from a good Jewish family, and most good Jewish families have a lawyer in there and we didn't, so maybe they felt like they needed a good lawyer in the family. Whatever the reason was, this is what they said. And so they said, why don't you go to law school? And I'm like, what are you talking about? It's March. And I've never even thought about law school. So I thought about it for like a little bit, maybe like an hour. And I'm like, yeah OK. I'll go to law school. And so, I went on spring break. I came back from spring break. I studied for like a month for the LSATs. I took the LSATs. I did pretty well, and that's where I ended up. Louis Goodman — 06:41 When you got out of law school, you ultimately had a job as a criminal defense attorney. Can you talk a little bit about that process? Getting out of law school and then getting into the criminal defense world?Matt Spiegel — 06:55 I'll be very forthcoming. The reason why I went into criminal defense, I don't know that I ever wanted to be, I don't know that I ever saw myself being a practicing lawyer for the rest of my life. And I've always been a bit more of an entrepreneur than anything else. And I think that that showed itself with my choice to go into criminal defense.I think, one, I enjoy the action, and so I just thought like, wait a second, I'm a lawyer. Doesn't that mean, shouldn't I be in court all the time? And then I realize that very few practice areas actually put you in court, all the time. But one that does was criminal defense. So that was one reason. But the more important reason to me was I thought that it could be a good business to run.I thought that having a criminal defense firm would lend itself really well to building like a repeatable business model. Louis Goodman — 07:48 How did that work out? Matt Spiegel — 07:50 Well, it worked out pretty well. You know, I was able to, I went and worked at a firm for like four years, and then I started my own firm. And when I started my own firm is when I really put into motion these ideas I had about building, you know, a repeatable process around criminal defense.And so that was like, okay, every person that comes in, this is the process they're gonna go through. This is how I'm gonna treat them. This is, it's like an assembly line, not as far as their case is concerned, but as far as their experience is concerned. And I like the fact that it was, I thought it's easier to run a business and it's easy to have a more predictable business if you're billing flat fee, whereas an hourly business is not as predictable.And so I went the route of criminal defense primarily because I thought it would be a good business model. Louis Goodman — 08:34 So can you talk a little bit about what sort of theories and procedures that you had in terms of the criminal defense practice and how you built that practice? Matt Spiegel — 08:47 Yeah, I mean, I had a pricing schedule really. I was like, okay, if you have a DUI that fits into this mold, like this is what the cost is going to be, right? There was no, doesn't matter the number of hours or it didn't matter the amount of work, the level of complexity was this was a flat fee. And so I could very say, okay, if I go get this many DUIs, this is how much money I'm gonna make. If I get this many felony cases, this is how much money I'm gonna make. And the reason why that was important is just kinda the way I looked at the world. And you know, ended up being very relevant to the type of businesses that I've built since, especially Lawmatics. But I look at it as like, okay, I'm trying to build a business. What's one of the first things you have to do if you wanna go get business? You gotta advertise, you gotta do marketing, right? The business isn't just gonna come to you without doing anything, even though most lawyers think that that's the case. So I was like, all right, well if I go spend money on marketing, how do I know if what I'm spending is worth it? Right? Like what's the value of going and spending a dollar on advertising? Well, if I go spend a hundred dollars on advertising and I get a case that I have no idea how much I'm gonna make from, might be a lot of billing, might be a little bit of billing, that's not really great from a, from a KPI standpoint. If I'm measuring, if I'm trying to measure data, if I'm trying to measure the value of a dollar spent on marketing, it's hard if I don't know how much is gonna come outta the back end.So by going into criminal offense, which was a very flat feet oriented practice area, I knew. So I knew if I go and spend $500 to acquire a DUI client, I make $2,500 off of it. That's $2,000 in profit when it comes to acquisition cost. Right? And it's very formulaic. And now I can go spend a ton of money on advertising and I will always be able to formulate whether my acquisition cost is worth it.And things like acquisition cost are things that lawyers just typically don't think about. It's one of the reasons why we built Lawmatics, but it really is critical to any business, and this is just how I looked at the world when I was getting started with my own practice, and it's just translated to now.Louis Goodman — 10:55 Yesterday I did a podcast interview with a very successful lawyer who has a family law practice, and she was telling me about how her firm uses MyCase. Matt Spiegel — 11:08 I've heard of it! Louis Goodman — 11:09 And yeah, and I said, well, that's interesting because tomorrow I'm gonna be talking to the guy who developed MyCase. Tell us a little bit about MyCase and how you developed that and what the point of MyCase is.Matt Spiegel — 11:23 MyCase is designed to be a product for a law firm. MyCase got started, it's an interesting story in the sense that it's not many people know it, but MyCase was only started because I had a problem at my law firm that I wanted to solve, right? So, the truth of the matter is, shortly after I started my law firm, I got a bar complaint from an existing client, right? And that bar complaint, if you have any knowledge at all about what the number one complaint at any state bar is, then you would know what my bar complaint was. Louis Goodman — 11:59 You didn't return their phone call. Matt Spiegel — 12:01 You are a hundred percent accurate. That is exactly what it was. It was attorney-client communication, and it wasn't like that I didn't call, it was simply that they were calling me, I was in court all day and I didn't return their phone call quick enough. Right? So I got a bar complaint because of that. And I thought to myself, this is insane. Like, how am I still dealing with this issue? First of all, that's ridiculous. I was in court all day. I called you back as soon as I got out of court, you know, and it was six hours, seven hours tops. What's the big deal there? But also I'm like, why am I still communicating this way? Like, there's all this great tech in the world. How in the world am I still not able, and you know, what they wanted from me was not earth-shattering. It wasn't like they needed to discuss something that was urgent. They just wanted to know what was going on. Louis Goodman — 12:52 How's my case? Matt Spiegel — 12:52 How's my case going? When's my next court date? Where's my discovery, right? So I'm like, man, I could, like I said to my cousin, my cousin was building my website for my law firm, just my basic website. It was like, you know, whatever, some basic HTML thing. And I said to him, I'm like, hey, look, listen Alex, can you just build like a backend to my website where I can put things up there so my clients can just see it without having to call me? And he is like, I don't know. I mean, maybe. He's like, but I don't know how to do that. I'm not that kind of developer. So, I'm like, maybe I could just find somebody to do it. So I found a friend who was an engineer or software engineer, and I'm like, can you do this? He's like, yeah, I guess whatever. So, he started to do it. I started telling my friends I was doing it, and they're like, oh, that's cool. Can they do it for me? And I'm like, no. And I said to them, hey, I'm getting some friends asking me about this. Do you think that maybe we should build a product that just does this for lawyers? Lets them communicate with their client? And so the first ever legal client portal was built, right? That's what we built. That's what MyCase was in the beginning. MyCase was not a practice management software. MyCase didn't even know what time and billing was, right? It was just simply a way to talk to your clients in a way that they were used to being talked to. And so we released that product, or we tried to release it and we went to a conference and we started talking to random lawyers and they're like, yeah, this is kind of cool. I'm not gonna pay extra for it. It should just be part of like these other, you know, practice management softwares that have been around. And so we said, huh, okay. And so then I'm like, Hey guys, I got another idea. How about we just turn this into a practice management software? Because I wasn't very happy with the other solutions that were out there. And I had been using a couple of them. At the time I was using Clio, I was using Rocket Matter. Both of those products have come a long way and they're actually, you know, obviously now they're very great, robust and mature products, but back then they were brand new. They didn't solve the problem I needed to solve.So, I convinced these two guys, my cousin and my friend Chris to build, basically build the company with me. And that's how MyCase got started. And you know, a year and a half later or two years later, we were acquired by a much larger company and then we went public in 2015 and the story is still being written for MyCase.Louis Goodman — 15:24 Yeah, I hear about people using it all the time. Matt Spiegel — 15:26 So now MyCase is owned by the parent company that owns LawPay, so it has become a very big, very big player in the legal tech space. Louis Goodman — 15:35 When did you decide to leave MyCase and then go and start Lawmatics? Matt Spiegel — 15:44 Yeah, that's a good question. So, I left MyCase. Time was up. The company was growing a lot pretty fast. I had like a deal with the company that acquired us, that required that I'd be there for a certain amount of time, and then when that ended, it was the right time for me to exit as well. And I actually went and did some non-legal related stuff. So for a couple years, Louis, I was just off, I was running a totally unrelated company as CEO, I was actually headquartered primarily in Sydney, Australia.And so, I was going back and forth to Sydney, Australia frequently. And as a husband and as the father of two young girls at the time, it wasn't great. And so after about two years, I'm like, a couple things started to percolate. One was all this travels a lot. Two was, I wanna be my own boss again. So I was the CEO, but I had a board, I had a chairman. It wasn't really the arrangement that made me the most happy. so I decided I wanted to build my own company again. And I also decided that the legal space, I thought I wanted to get away from it, but I really liked it and it was a space I knew really, really well. And thirdly, back at MyCase, we had identified a shift or, or the beginnings of a shift in the legal market as a whole. We started to see law firms begin to understand that they need to think about their law firm more as a business and less as a law firm, right? And now it was just a kernel of an idea. It hadn't really become a mainstream concept yet, but this was back in 2013, 2014. So now fast forward to 2017, and I'm wanting to build another company in the legal tech space.And I thought to myself, this little kernel of an idea that we saw years ago has now become a little, there's a lot more inertia behind it. And it's becoming more of a mainstream idea that like the law firm is not just a law firm, it's a business like any other. And it was that that allowed us to build Lawmatics. We needed that market shift. We needed that mindset shift in lawyers in order for Lawmatics to make sense. It wouldn't have made sense eight, nine years ago, but it made sense at the end of 2017, beginning of 2018, when I was coming back into the space. Louis Goodman — 18:12 And if I understand Lawmatics correctly, it has to do with funneling clients into your firm.And then while they're there as clients, perhaps a firm would want to use something like MyCase or Clio, but then once they are done, once the case is over, you still wanna keep client contact with them because they're the people who are gonna be referring you new business. Matt Spiegel — 18:44 You're a hundred percent right. Yeah. You think about it exactly the correct way. Lawmatics is sort of the bookend around the bookends of other products that exist in the market. And that final part of the journey, that part where the case is over and they're a former client, that's the part, Louis, that so many lawyers get wrong. They neglect it, right. We talk to lawyers all the time, obviously, and I go all around the country and I talk to bar associations and all these big groups of people. And I always say, like, I always tell people, how many of you have more than 500 past clients? Right? And almost everybody raises their hand.And then I say, how many of you send all of them an email on their birthday? And all of the hands go down. Like, what are we doing here? That's so easy. What you have to remember. What I think lawyers, what we tend to forget and like, what I always like lawyers to think about more than anything else is like for, for 95% of the practice areas out there, consumer driven law, personal injury, estate planning, bankruptcy, family law, criminal defense, to your client, this is the most important thing going on in their life, no matter what, right? It's the most important thing. To the lawyer, just another client, and you just can't think of it that way. You have to think about it in terms of like, this is the most important thing going on in their life. And if you think about it like that, you realize the relationship is a lot more important.And you realize that like when their case is over, you're just dropping them and not communicating with them anymore. That doesn't feel very good, right? You helped usher them through the most important thing in their life, and now you just want nothing to do with them like they don't exist to you anymore? No. You need to be, you should be sending 'em an email on their birthday. You should be reaching out every now and again. You should be sending them updates about your law firm. And at the end of the day, that is ultimately gonna result in a better experience, which will result in a better business for the law firm. Louis Goodman — 20:52 And people referring their friends, relatives, and that sort of thing.Matt Spiegel — 20:57 That's exactly right. Yeah. People forget about it. I don't know. Louis Goodman — 21:01 Well, what do you really like about working with lawyers? Matt Spiegel — 21:04 Lawyers are receptive to tech, right? So what I like about lawyers are they're not heavily invested in technology, typically. It's still an, it's still an industry that is behind the times, believe it or not, right?Louis Goodman — 21:16 Oh yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Matt Spiegel — 21:19 And I love that because that's such an opportunity to, the same way that as a lawyer, I want to delight my customers, I wanna delight my clients, I want them to have a great experience. I feel the same way now. I want the law firms that I work with to be delighted. I want them to have a great experience.And it's really cool when you talk to a lawyer who's not using tech, not leveraging it in a way that really benefits them or leveraging it at all. When you hit them with that value proposition and when they see what technology can do for them, it's a really cool moment, right? And you can't do that in all industries because other industries have been using technology to streamline their processes, to make them more efficient for a long time. But legal just hasn't quite been there. So it's probably the thing I like the most is just really being able to have a significant impact with not a lot of effort. Louis Goodman — 22:15 What sort of mistakes do you think lawyers make? Matt Spiegel — 22:17 That's a good question. I mean, I think I pointed out a big one already, which is that they don't treat their law firm like a business. I think you could be the best lawyer in the world, but you could suck at bedside manner. So you could be the best lawyer in the world and you could have a terrible business, right? Because you don't provide a good customer experience. The flip side is you could have a great business because you provide a great experience. It's not always about the outcome of the case. And lawyers, I think lose sight of that. All they think about is, I'm gonna deliver you a good outcome. I'm gonna get you more money, I'm gonna get you... And that's great. Obviously at the end of the day, you know, you wanna be a good lawyer, but there's a lot more to it than being a good lawyer, right? It's like the same reason why, you know, we go shop at Trader Joe's as opposed to, you know, Ralph's or Safeway or whatever grocery stores in your community. It's because we get a good experience when we go there. You can buy eggs from any grocery store, but you go to the one that you like because it provides a good experience for you. Lawyers are becoming more and more ubiquitous and the difference between lawyers I think is becoming less and less. You have so many lawyers who are out on their own, so many great lawyers who are providing really good outcomes, competitive services, advertising on Google. Like if I need a criminal defense lawyer now I go on Google and I type in San Diego DUI lawyer, I'm gonna get a hundred guys. And all of them are ultimately gonna be able to deliver me about the same outcome, but they're not gonna all deliver me the same experience. And that's where I think lawyers make mistakes, is they just don't think about those things.Louis Goodman — 24:08 How do you define success? You've had a lot of success from an objective point of view. How do you, Matt, define success in your own life? Matt Spiegel — 24:19 I'm a big believer in the cliche of, if you love what you do, you never work another day in your life. It couldn't be more accurate. And to me that, you know, when it comes to professional success, that's how I view it. I don't consider myself having a job, right? Like I'm just sort of always working, and I'm always not working because it's just like my life is intertwined with what I do professionally and it's just, it just is, right? It's not like, okay, I get up in the morning, I gotta go to the office and it's like a switch, and then I leave the office and it's switched off. It's not like that at all. It's just all intertwined. My whole life is intertwined with the business I build and my family and my friends and everything just works together. And to me that's success, to me. I don't care how much money I make, that doesn't really measure success to me. I think that's a byproduct of, of being successful. But, you know, building a business that supports you, you know, financially obviously is critical, but it's more. It's feeling like you don't work and it's just your life and everything kind of revolves around each other, to me is how I measure success and I have a feeling a lot of solo lawyers out there probably feel the same way.Louis Goodman — 25:48 How has being in this business affected and fit in with your family life? Matt Spiegel — 25:56 Building a startup is not for the faint of heart. I built MyCase, I had the idea for MyCase the very same week that I found out we were pregnant with our first daughter. And that's hard. It is hard to build a startup and have a kid have a baby. Yeah. That was tough. But again, I've been able to have it become just intertwined with my life. So, if I need to go do something for my family, I just go do something for my family. It doesn't mean I'm not working, right. It doesn't mean I am working, it just means I'm doing what I need to do.And then, you know, the business is a 24/7 thing. There's no hours for a business like mine, right, like a tech company, a software company. We're always working, we're always thinking, we're always, our head is always in the business. Even if we're, you know, if we're also participating as something else with our family.And so for me, I've really learned this work life balance almost being forced to. Because, you know, truth of the matter is I've seen like a lot of, you know, families and relationships devastated by building a startup, right? Because it is really, really hard work. It takes up more time than you can imagine.But I was really open with my wife when doing it. We were very upfront with what it was gonna take and what it was gonna look like. But then very quickly we learned how to morph and balance and turn the business into our life instead of kind of fitting everything around it. Louis Goodman — 27:30 Have you had any interesting travel experiences?Matt Spiegel — 27:32 I'm actually not very well traveled, Louis. I had this whole Australia thing for a while and I don't know, have you ever been to Sydney? Have you ever been to Australia? Louis Goodman — 27:42 Yeah, I have. Matt Spiegel — 27:44 Did you like it? Louis Goodman — 27:45 I loved it. I thought it was amazing. I thought it was a wonderful mix of Southern California and British culture.Matt Spiegel — 27:56 So that's a really good way to put it and I would totally agree with you. And I would actually go on a limb and say that Sydney might be one of my, might be my favorite city in the world. I did get to go play golf in Scotland, which is probably one of my highlight travel experiences. I also lived in Spain for a summer when I was 16 to train on clay courts. I was a tennis player and I went to train on clay courts for a summer. Louis Goodman — 28:20 What keeps you up at night? Matt Spiegel — 28:22 That's a really tough one. Well, it's not a tough one, but it is what it is. At a tech company, product is the most important thing. You know, in my opinion, you gotta have a good product. And what keeps me up at night is the fear of like Lawmatics going down, or, you know, waking up in the morning and, and seeing that, like, we broke something massive, which has happened before, and it'll happen again. But I think that keeps me up at night is like the fear that like, at any moment it could all, it could all fall apart. And it can. It's an, you know, we, we have an amazing team. We built an amazing product. We know what we're doing when it comes to building software. But there's always still this fear in the back of my head that like, you know, God, it's like we had to have screwed up somewhere along the way and at some point it's just gonna all explode. You know? And I think if anything keeps me up at night, it's that.Louis Goodman — 29:22 Let's say you came into some real money. You and your wife came into, let's say three or four billion dollars. What, if anything, would you change in your life? Matt Spiegel — 29:32 Well, if you asked my wife nothing would change. If you ask me, probably a lot, but really like other than stupid stuff, because if I came into that kind of money, I'd probably buy like a sweet car because I'm really into cars.I think the only thing that would change would be the way that, the amount of time that we experience life outside, like I think I would travel a lot more, like you mentioned travel earlier. I think that's where the biggest change would be, is I think we would just, you know, travel. You know, clearly we don't, I mean, we do travel a bunch, but it's just not the crazy places usually. I think that would change if, if we came into that kind of money. I don't think, I don't think I'm, you know, life is gonna change where I'm gonna move and buy new houses and do all this crazy stuff. I think I'm just gonna travel a lot more. And to be honest with you, Louis, maybe you're the type of guy that feels the same way, but I think I would still build the company I'm building. I don't think I would, I don't think I would be taken away from that. Louis Goodman — 30:28 Matt, if someone wants to get in touch with you and has some interest in Lawmatics or in speaking with you, is there a website or a place that they can go where they can open up that communication? Matt Spiegel — 30:45 Yeah, totally. So, If you wanna look at Lawmatics, which, you know, go, please do lawmatics.com super easy. Go there. Maybe more importantly, if you have any questions for me, if you have any thoughts. I love just talking to lawyers in general. As hopefully I've illustrated, I've been doing it for a long time now, and I love hearing stories from lawyers. I love lawyers who have problems and, and wanna try to figure out creative ways to solve them.You can email me anytime. My email is matt@lawmatics.com. I love hearing from people. Louis Goodman — 31:20 Matt, is there anything that you'd like to discuss or touch on that we haven't had a chance to talk about? Matt Spiegel — 31:26 No. We've talked about a lot and some cool stuff, to be honest with you, so I'm not sure that there's any like one thing or any parting wisdom or anything I have. I don't think I'm very wise. But I think the only thing if I could leave lawyers with any, you know, with any thought, and this is, you know, again, from my own experience as, you know, a lawyer, not just someone who's been helping lawyers, but also as a lawyer. It's like, just remember that this is the most important thing your clients are going through and remember, you know, just put yourself in their shoes and how you would want to be treated during that time.Forget about the outcome of the case and just think about how they want to be treated throughout that process. And if you can do that. I just think you're gonna have a better practice, a more successful practice, and you are just gonna be much happier, which is all what it translates to. So that would be all.Louis Goodman — 32:23 Matt Spiegel, thank you so much for joining me today on the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Matt Spiegel — 32:30 Yeah, Louis, it's been a pleasure to be here and I appreciate you having me on. Louis Goodman — 32:34 That's it for today's episode of Love Thy Lawyer. If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend and follow the podcast. If you have comments or suggestions, send me an email. Take a look at our website at lovethylawyer.com, where you can find all of our episodes, transcripts, photographs and information.Thanks to my guests and to Joel Katz from music, Bryan Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman.

The rules surrounding depositions can be enough to send new lawyers into a cold sweat. Depositions are a critical tool for building a case, and as such, it is essential for attorneys of all skill levels to be well-versed in the various objections that can arise during the course of a deposition. While some objections are straightforward, others can be more nuanced and require a deep understanding of the legal system. And not all objections applied in court are allowed in a deposition, which can be another source of anxiety. In this blog post, we will discuss five key deposition objections that every attorney needs to know. Whether you are a seasoned litigator or a new attorney, these objections are essential to understand in order to effectively represent your clients. We will explore each objection in depth, providing examples of when each objection might be appropriate and the legal justification behind it. By the end of this post, you will have a better understanding of these key deposition objections and be better equipped to navigate the deposition process.

Asked and answered

During a cross-examination, opposing counsel may repeat the same questions framed in different ways to elicit the same answer. The objection is important because it can prevent unnecessary repetition, save time, and avoid confusion for the deponent. For example, if a deponent has already answered a question about their whereabouts on a specific date, and the opposing counsel tries to ask the same question again, the deponent's attorney can raise the "asked and answered" objection to prevent the deponent from having to repeat their answer. Conversely, an attorney may ask their own clients the same questions repeatedly hoping that the answer will be more favorably delivered than the prior answer.

Example

Attorney: “Is it true that you agreed to pay this person $20,000?”Mr Kokoshka: “No.”Attorney: “So, you’re saying that you don’t owe this person $20,000?”

Harassment

When it's perceived that a witness is being questioned inappropriately or in an offensive/invasive manner by opposing counsel, an objection can be raised to cease that line of questioning. If, for instance, the questions are highly personal, and they make the deponent feel uncomfortable and harassed, the deponent's attorney can raise the objection of harassment to prevent the opposing counsel from asking any more questions that could be viewed as offensive or invasive. This objection is important because it helps maintain a professional and respectful environment during the deposition, and protects the deponent from unfair or improper questioning. If the behavior continues following the objection you may have the right to end the deposition altogether.

Example

Attorney A: "So, Ms. Smith, can you tell me if you're currently dating anyone?"Ms. Smith: "I don't see how that's relevant to this case."Attorney A: "I'm just trying to get a sense of your personal life, that's all."Ms. Smith: "I'm sorry, but I don't feel comfortable answering that question."Attorney A: "Well, I'm going to ask it anyway. Are you single or in a relationship?"Attorney B (raising the objection): "Objection, counsel. That question is harassing and irrelevant to this case."

Privilege

If a question seeks information that is protected by a legal privilege, such as attorney-client privilege or physician-patient privilege, the attorney can object to prevent the deponent from answering the question. This objection helps maintain the confidentiality of sensitive information, and can prevent the waiver of important legal privileges. For example, let's say that during a deposition, opposing counsel asks a deponent a question about a conversation they had with their attorney regarding the case. The deponent's attorney can raise the objection of privilege to prevent the deponent from answering the questionWhenever a privilege objection is made, you must instruct your client not to answer. Because it is privileged information, they are not required to answer.

Example

Attorney A: "Can you tell me what you and your attorney discussed about this case in your last meeting?"Ms. Ripley: "I'm sorry, but I can't answer that question."Attorney A: "Why not?"Attorney B (raising the objection): "Objection, counsel. The question seeks information that is protected by attorney-client privilege."

Relevance

During a deposition, a lawyer may object to the relevancy of a question, should the questioning stray too far from the case at hand. In most cases, asking an off-topic question is a tactic used to shed negative light on a witness's character. This objection is important because it helps save time and keep the deposition focused on the relevant issues, and prevents attorneys from going on tangents about irrelevant topics. Note: not all courts allow relevancy objections during depositions unless the question is blatantly intended to harass or otherwise humiliate.

Example

Attorney A: "What's your favorite ice cream flavor?"Mrs. Vito: "I don't see how that's relevant to this case."Attorney A: "I'm just making conversation. You can answer the question, can't you?"Attorney B (raising the objection): "Objection, counsel. The question is not relevant to the case at hand."

Form

During a deposition you can object to the form of a question. This objection is like a referee in a game of football, making sure that the rules are being followed and the game is played fairly. If a question is unclear or improperly worded, the attorney can object to prevent the deponent from answering it. This objection is important because it ensures that the questioning is fair and understandable, and prevents attorneys from asking confusing or misleading questions.

Example

Attorney A: "Have you ever not not worked for this company?"Mr. Tomasi: "I'm sorry, I don't understand the question."Attorney A: "It's a simple yes or no question. Have you ever not not worked for this company?"Attorney B (raising the objection): "Objection, counsel. The question is unclear and confusing."

Tips for preparing for your deposition

When it comes to a deposition, preparation is your best defense. And although some law schools may offer litigation training, there is not a lot of time dedicated to deposition training. Yet, civil litigators spend more time in depositions than in trials. That's why, it's important that you go in ready.

Prepare your client

Your client is the most important part of your preparation. Each lawyer has their own unique set of deposition rules that they offer their clients. Yet in most cases it all comes down to the same basic things.

• Keep Answers Short
• Be Truthful
• Carefully reflect before answering
• Don’t get overly emotional

Give your client a rundown on what kind of body language and behavior is useful, and what could be harmful. They should know that they should never volunteer any information unless it's directly asked. Teach them the proper language to use like direct answers instead of “maybe” and above all, tell them that it's okay to ask that a question be rephrased if they don't understand.

Be confident

It's easy to become overwhelmed during your first few depositions. Remember, the best defense is a good offense. Anticipate any objections by listening closely to the witness's testimony. Review any and all documents and facts and go in armed with knowledge. Remember, even though you may be sweating bullets during your first deposition, it won’t always be this way. The more experience you have the easier it will get, but in the meantime muster all the confidence you can.

Protect your client

Remember, while defending a deposition you're also simultaneously defending your witness. Protect your witness by keeping them comfortable. They may get overly fatigued, thirsty, hungry, or even too hot or cold. Give them whatever they need to stay comfortable to deliver the best possible deposition. Remember, the opposing counsel will likely try to make your witness as uncomfortable as possible, and it's your job to be ready for it.

Study thoroughly

Besides knowing the case details, you should also reexamine any additional facts that could require more development through the testimony. Consider your strategy, and use your theory as a guide to forming the questions you plan on asking.

Keep it short

It’s best to avoid writing out extensive questions. Create a bulleted list of brief questions and statements. By keeping your questions short you'll be able to get the most out of your witness. Long drawn out questions will only bore and fatigue your witness, so keep it light, brief, and to the point and it will flow more like an actual conversation.

Know The Rules

Besides knowing the proper objections, you should also know the applicable court rules. For example, you should know how much time is allowed for examining witnesses, how many breaks are permitted, and the rules regarding talking with your client. It can be embarrassing going into a deposition without being familiar with the deposition rules in your jurisdiction.

Preparation is everything Lawmatics can help

As a lawyer, there is plenty to keep in mind before your deposition. The key to your success ultimately lies in preparation.Yet depositions are only one element of being a lawyer. As an attorney an enormous amount of organization is required of you which is why you need the right tools to stay organized. It's easy to find your head spinning when there's so much at stake and so much to juggle. Lawmatics can help you stay on top of it all. As the number one attorney-client relationship management platform Lawmatics can help your law firm with client intake, CRM, and marketing. If you're ready to see Lawmatics in action, schedule a demo today.